How Not to Stay Neutral on Net Neutrality

Net Neutrality has been an issue of great concern to people who work online. The end of it may likely mean an end to those smaller operations, or new ideas looking for a place to blossom. It has also been of great concern to corporate interests and the Telecomms, who all look to cement their control on what we see and use. It all comes down to how neutral we will see information and services online treated.

FCC after Dark - from College Humor

But the FCC (Federal Trade Commission) is eyeing an end to neutrality. Not surprising from a collective largely made up of former and future executives of the Telecomm Industry. And the head of the FCC thinks it makes perfect sense to end neutrality, but make a caveat that all access must be kept at least at the levels they currently are at.

That would be great if time and technology stood still. But that's the point of the statement from the FCC. Sound good, mean nothing. Throw out a platitude while handing the power, wealth making potential, and speed to their corporate friends.

These Assholes - By College Humor

After that, we are all left to the whims of Internet Service Providers, and to the select online services that have paid up large sums to run suitably. And for many in power, that is how the world should work. You shouldn't have things if you can't pay up a nice size fee for it. Schooling. Water. Knowledge.

Well, that is garbage. The Internet is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas, amusement, and disappointment.


Among those trying to advocate for no neutrality think that not all sites deserve to be treated equal. Money should buy access. The Internet should operate like many other areas of business where the barriers to entry should be high. For many of them, Net Neutrality is a regulation. And that means taxes. And, "The government will control the Internet!!!".

The attitude is that they fear/hate the government, but tolerate/respect the old boy network of corporate elite making decision on this.

I don't, obviously, trust the people at the FCC. We need a better quality of regulator there. But if I have to choose between the power being in the FCC's and the Telecomms grasp, I pick the FCC. Whipping the FCC into shape is easier. And, once industry has it's way with the Internet, we'll have to wait a decade or more to right things.

We rely on regulation by government for a good reason. Industry rarely does a fair to decent job of watching over itself.

Net Speak: Me Talk No Good. LOL

Is the language of the Internet killing society, language, literacy, and...stuff?

Probably not.

This may well just be part of language and social communication flexing, growing, and experimenting. Language needs to get taken out once in awhile and exercised. It's not the family silver.

So, yes, if you fret that language isn't used the way you like, you are a Margaret Dumont character.

From Critical Lit:

Hackers and Hollywood

We've all watched it for years. We've all seen how ridiculous it's gotten. But it seems writers in Hollywood are only growing less technologically savvy.

But computers are magic, aren't they? At least that's what my new computer keeps telling me...

From Cracked.Com:

5 Stupid Things Movies Believe About Hacking -- powered by Cracked.com

Trailers In Short - Brains Don't Work That Way Edition

So many Go To's in science fiction fantasy. Among them is the magic of the human mind. It can do anything. Get Uploaded. Get Downloaded. Time Travel. Make Heads Explode.

So let's look at some new movies that take up two of these tropes. Lucy and Transcendence.


Lucy



Hey, it's Johansson in a solo superheroish movie...but still not a Black Widow movie.

So she gets infused with some magic drug, and becomes super focused and agile. Okay. It makes you think she might be super cool spy type for the movie. Then it gets weirder.

She starts warping reality, hacking the Matrix, and discovers that Love really is a dirty word (Maybe not the last one.) ...And all because, we all only ever use 10% of our brains. Sigh. We actually use all of our brain. We may not look like it, but we are making full use of our noggins. We don't have secret super powers locked away, like were video game characters. It's so silly. I know it's a trope, but it's a trope that used to sell people on stupid ideas and products in the real world.

That is just not how our bodies work...

Anyway, while she has amazing new perceptions, an altered brain, and world altering powers, she's still focused on getting at the people who did it all to her. Think bigger.

But, hey, Morgan Freeman's there to mentor her along the way. That's requisite these days, right?


...Speaking of Morgan Freeman...


Transcendence



Johnny Depp gets uploaded onto the Internet.

Apparently, if you try and copy a person, it works fine. Imagine that, it's ALL there? Memories? Sure. But, psychology? And what about all those other different aspects that make up the mind? It would be a perfect replica?

Better yet, would it be you? Sure, why not? Shame on you for doubting it! Blasphemer!

But better, once you are Of The Internet, you get superpowers. You get to be superior, or better.

It's a movie that feels like a bad movie. It's a shame, much of this feels like it is an over long episode of The Outer Limits (the 90's version). The 60% of that show about people being afraid of technology, rightly or wrongly. It would be interesting if this movie looked at what makes one human or something else. What is gained or lost in "transcendence". It could be a fascinating topic.

But movie producers are a little leery of that stuff. More boom, less hmm.

But, hey, at least you get some fanatical Luddites as a counterpoint to the technology questions!

Remembering Hedy Lamarr

Today would be Hedy Lamarr's birthday. When she's remembered it's usually for her time in Hollywood, or the recurring joke in the movie Blazing Saddles.

And that is sad. Beyond the acting, she was a brilliant mind. She was a scientifically minded person. An inventor. Past the call of fame, she wanted to use her brains to make her ideas come to life.

And at home, she did that. Her most successful work was in developing a means to use frequency hopping in controls, the controls of torpedoes. Her ideas weren't taken that seriously, though she gave the technology to the US Navy. And from there others took the technology and in later decades made use of it in so many different technologies, right down to what is in your home today (including Bluetooth technology).





So let's be sure to remember this inventor. Remember what she did for science. And, encourage and inspire future inventors around you.

Funny thing happen while I street viewed around London.

If you haven't seen this...

Google, as they like, has had some nerdy fun with one of their services. In this case, with Google Maps.

Going here, will place you in front of an old early 20th century London police box.

This is, if you know too much about Doctor Who, is a police box that has been placed outside of the Earl's Court tube station. Nice to get your picture in front of.

But, if you don't live there, or can't travel there, it is little use to you. But Google has come up with a way to experience it. First, it can be gone to on Street View. And, yes, I have gone places through Street View (novel, sad, you decide). But once you go to it, like via the link above, you can "enter" it. And you will be aboard the current manifestation of the TARDIS (from Doctor Who).

And there you can wonder around the control room.

So try it out and just root around.

CISPA: Bad law on bad.

In considering CISPA in the last piece I mentioned SOPA, the last iteration of these efforts to broaden government access and control of personal information. It managed to scare and anger many. And with numerous powerful online and tech interest opposed, it was given a lot of unwanted attention that helped lead to its demise in Congress. 

It was overly broad law. It was bad law. It was unpopular law, with the industrial deep pockets elected figures like to please.

So the lesson the lobbyist and Congressional supporters took away from that fight was to make it more palatable to industry. Nothing else really changed. Bad bill language stayed. Broad powers stayed. It just shows an interesting level of cluelessness.

Now, it was politician smart. They don't want to have to get yelled at by the businesses they rely on for fundraising. So it's a no lose fight to their reelection campaigns.

But this cluelessness does have impact. SOPA would have been bad law, like CISPA before it, and now. But other like law are already on the books. Like CFAA, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. This law is outdated 80's law against computer hacking (Hey. Remember all those bad 80's hacking movies? It's that old a law.). But it is badly worded and outdated law. This is the law that was used all too recently to hound a rather young and brilliant civil liberties advocate (and vocal opponent of SOPA) Aaron Schwartz for relatively benign activity. But under this law the DA was trying to put him in prison for decades (Because it was the law...kinda.). (And those efforts sadly led to his suicide.) It was punitive action through bad law.

CFAA is exactly an example about why we do need legislation, new legislation, for cybersecurity. Things do need to change. And PIPA, SOPA, and CISPA are examples of why it has to be GOOD law, SOUND law, and INTELLIGENT law; all things these bills are not. We need change, but these laws based more on paranoia and control will not do the job. Our law crafters have to do better.

CISPA is just too vague in how it will be applied, much like CFAA. It will inevitably be used poorly and people will be made to unfairly suffer. And now before it is law is the time to act. Congress needs to do a better job. Looking at CFAA, even many changes suggested for it focus more on increasing punishments and making the violations of the act a more vague and unclear matter. The legislators making the decisions here are not doing a good. job. They have to do better. We have to make them do better, particularly as all the loud voices with the deep pockets are walking away from the fray. It is up to us.

Get informed. Get involved.

I also wanted to note that in passing CISPA through the House of Representatives, even some good Democratic representatives supported it (like Duckworth). The backers of CISPA are spending a lot and schmoozing a lot to ensure it gets supported. This includes overselling it's national security value. So, I think, it would be a good idea to reach out to your representative in Congress (and contact your senators to) and let them know what you think about CISPA and why you don't want it to pass. We to can make them informed voters (in Congress).

It is likely it won't pass the senate. And the president has said he would veto it. But, as I've pointed out, it will be back. And our representatives need to be ready and understand our concerns when it does. They may even, if informed, be able to amend it to be good law. But it starts with us.

CISPA, And Why People Are Pissed and Scared

CISPA, or Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act, is a bill that broadly expands the power government and business to share and use information, your information. It is an annoying bill, to say the least. Not in particular because it is one that refuses to stay down. A number of attempts have been made to pass it or similar bill in the last few years. Remember SOPA and PIPA? It's proving worse than a bad movie slasher. Not even a Son of CISPA. (But it is a curse.)

So. It is back, like a bad slasher movie remake (Don't worry. I'm killing these comparisons now.). And like before the idea is to sell it as a beneficent new law meant to help us, and keep us safe. Trouble comes in how it opens up the citizenry to new levels of privacy invasions. If the government says the words "national security", POP!, you're privacy rights and agreements online are no longer valid. (Lifehacker, Verge, and here look some more at the  CISPA bill and it's troubles.)

Here's the bill language.

 What this means is that when the government sees a threat, or deems one is rising, it can request an online provider hand over certain persons data. The provider can then just hand over all of the persons information. And under the new law the provider is protected from any lawsuits for violating promises about protecting personal data. It is all a quick and legal transaction between business and government.

And that is the key to CISPA now. SOPA got industrial opposition (the major business interests) because they were stuck in the middle and open to being held accountable. But now they will be made immune, while the law will still be able to screw the users over. But Twitter, Facebook  etc. will be fine (Phew!). The key thing is that this means these players aren't backing us now. For instance, AT&T and Verizon, along with the Telecom lobbyists, have come out in eager support now of CISPA.

And this is troubling. Troubling for peoples ability to speak freely. Troubling for privacy. Troubling for being able to feel confident in out constitutional rights.

CISPA is a very broadly defined law. It will make it extremely easy to bypass your legal rights. In my previous post I mentioned the Public Safety exemption to the Miranda rights. That currently just bends your constitutional rights. But it creates a future risk. With CISPA, as it is right now, it sets out a way to just disregard parts of the constitution, a constitutional bypass.

No warrants. No courts. No oversight. The American Library Association noted with the last attempt to pass this:

... 

The ALA is concerned that all private electronic communications could be obtained by the government and used for many purposes–and not just for cybersecurity activities. H.R. 3523 would permit, and sometimes even require, Internet service providers and other entities to monitor all electronic communications and share personal information with the government without effective oversight by claiming the sharing is for “cybersecurity purposes.” 

...

It isn't directly meant to be a new spy tool. But it is built so it can be instantly re-purposed as one. And when government is given a tool like this, it tends to find a reason to make use of it, like with the RICO law.

Now we should remember that laws need to be changed and updated. And cyber laws do need to move with the times. But their is a difference between what we need on the books to reasonably protect and serve society and what is just a means to easily control. When is it overreach? Miranda is an inconvenience to law enforcement. But it is a good one. It helps some people get the aid they need to not be abused. The need to get warrants before scouring your personal data is another important protection. This law leaves us vulnerable, while doing to little to actual protect us.


More from the Electronic Frontier Foundation on this.

Fight for the Future - CISPA is Back


Right now. Many people are planning to use today as a CISPA blackout, where they will have no presence online, in protest to the effect this law could have on online activity. I am still deciding whether to do this to (Yes. Based on my clock, I am over the deadline a little already. But time is relative, and it's still Sunday in some of the US still.) I am tempted to. But I am also tempted to see if I can write anything of use tomorrow, focused o this. We'll see.

Still, whether blacked out or not, CISPA is back. And it's passed the House of Representatives. President Obama has indicated he'd VETO it's current form if it passed the Senate. But if he's pressured to do otherwise... Or, if enough support is bought in the Senate, how close would they be to being able to override a veto?


As EFF above asks. Contact your senator now. Be sure they know where you stand, and why you stand there.

Be informed. Be involved. These are your rights.

Remembering Genius: Alan Turing

Turing is undeniable genius of the 20th century. A mathematician, cryptologist, and early master of the computer sciences, he also showed himself a hero of the Allied Forces during World War II.

Born in 1912, on June 23rd, he went on to go to Cambridge and Princeton getting a top education. During this time he created the Turing Machine, which was a "hypothetical device representing a computing machine." 


Already in '38 Turing went to work with his nation's cryptanalytic department, outside his main job. When the war officially started he went to work for the U.K. full time. He was a leading decipher of German codes and helped build Bombe to help reveal Axis secrets. By the war's end they were decoding 84,000 messages a month. His, and his colleagues, work led to him being made an officer of the Order of the British Empire.

Along with his code work, and the creation of Bombe, Turing developed an amazing early computational device, ACE, which showed a good deal of promise. But it was not completed to his schematics, simplified, and therefor behind other designs that were built.

In 1950 wrote a paper in which he introduced the idea of the Turing Test. It is a test of a machine and it's capacity to reflect intelligence. If you've seen it in popular culture, like in Blade Runner, the concept plays out as an attempt to see if a machine can act human. The test continues to be applied, and debated, to this day. During this time he was made a member of the Royal Society.

As he continued to chase new ideas in computer science, in 1952, Turing was arrested, tried, and convicted for the crime of being a homosexual. Well through the 20th century this remained a crime in England (In the U.S. the Supreme Court was still striking down these laws in 2003.). To avoid actual prison time, Turing was chemically castrated. Along with this, as a homosexual, he had his well deserved security clearance revoked and cut off from the advance work of his field. Two years later, he was dead. It was ruled suicide then, but there is an argument for it being an accident arriving from his research

Today we remember a genius and hero, ostracisized and humiliated by a close minded society. After such duty and dedication, such brilliance and output, he was discarded by his government. Only in 2009 did the government admit to the wrong.

Let's be sure no one else suffers a similar fate in the U.K. or the U.S. in the 21st century, shall me?

Thrusters a go at NASA

Despite a dismissive look from many for NASA these days, NASA is continuing to work on.

Today, they have been testing out the new J-2X rockets.

NASA:

Testing of the next-generation J-2X rocket engine continues to set standards. Last fall, the engine attained 100 percent power in just its fourth test and became the fastest U.S. rocket engine to achieve a full-flight duration test, hitting that 500-second mark in its eighth test. On, May 25, NASA recorded another first during a 40-second test of the engine on the A-2 Test Stand at John C. Stennis Space Center. For the first time, test conductors fired the J-2X in both the secondary and primary modes of operation, 20 seconds in each. Previous tests were run in one mode only; combining the two allowed operators to collect critical data on engine performance.  

The data will be used in continued development of the engine, which is being built to help carry humans deeper into space than ever before. ...

NASA still is working hard. It may not be the priority we'd like, for the time being. But it still has it's function. And like all of us, it still has it's dreamers and innovators.

Fridays and online presence

I had some free time last Friday, so I had the time to enjoy listening to The Stephanie Miller Show in the morning.  This last week, Steph and her cohorts were vacationing after a long run.  Hal Sparks was in for the week, and that day he had the regular guest (Fridays with Fugelsang)  for Friday's on, John Fugelsang.

And I love them one and all.  Hal is a great host, who likes to engage callers, pro and con, and dig into ideas at times.  And he has an excellent sense that allows his to take quite persuasively about various ideas.  When I was annoyed at the Senate bill, he helped me to sit and think on my position on its viability and usefulness.  And John is also great, and offers his own thoughtful sense to issues.  So I loved his added dynamic on Friday, and on his stop over earlier in the week.

And to add one more thing.  I do love their points and arguments largely.  Now like with many of my fellow liberals, I have to descent on alt med, organic food, nuclear power, etc.  But they can offer interesting conversation on religion.  They are both spiritual.  But happily eschew the religions, the bible used as a tool to demand moral truth ex-cetera.  But they also see a lot of good from Jesus.  It's picking up and leaving behind the hand full of WTF passages from Jesus.  You know, cursing the fig tree, calling for his followers to abandon their families, telling them near the end to go and get weapons, etc.  Their is good in the Jesus story, but their is more to that can be troubling.  But they are artful in conversation and it would be interesting to see them discuss their thinking with knowledgeable atheist.  But, being a pessimist, I can't imagine that going well.

But more than just listening, I tried the live streaming Sparks likes to incorporate into his weekly sojourns to the shows, usually on Wednesdays.  It was a blast, as a I usually join in and try it midway through the show between teaching classes, and it is a stilted mess.  Friday was great though,  clear, relatively smooth, and I got to watch the between commercial bits.  Yes this is old news.  It has been around for ages now, and I have also tried this tech before, like with Atheist Experience.  But for once I relented to the impulse and used the live commenting.  It still annoys me though.  It speeds passed as hundreds comment, so I have no idea who can or does pay too much attention, which begs a question of what the point is.  But some do, and they engage each other.  But it feels an awful lot like I am at home just remarking out loud to myself.

And that is how I feel about a lot of the tech that is so exciting to many.  Twitter.  If I am not promoting something, or in need to stay in contact with a person or group...why?  Same with Facebook, etc.  But the temptation after he the flawed fun of Friday tempts me to just try it out online some more.  By it I mean the social networking...and yes, what a trend setter.  I just need to decide if it is worth my while, not a waste, or worse going to set unused like an unwanted Christmas present.

Seeing your system.

Bad Astronomer, Phil Plaitt has been pointing to a number of interesting vids of the solar system.

From the Japanese vessel, Kaguya, video of the moon's surface.

Here's one.


Kaguya is soon to meet it's end, slamming into the moon's surface.


Then a shot of Mercury. from Messenger.

You don't need this computer, right?

I heard about this months ago, and was worried. Hearing about it again makes me all the more perturbed.

PZ Myers:

As someone who takes his laptop everywhere, this is chilling news about the ongoing erosion of our rights:

Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

...

Not to worry though. We are told this WILL NOT affect your privacy. And the government, especially this one, telling me that just makes me feel...all the worse.

What is this? They can just take my computer from me? Just for the heck of it? How is this right? How about they do a better job at surveillance, intel work, and law enforcement. And not just set up laws to allow them to randomly grab private property, just in case, or tap every phone, just in case.

Now, most of us are not involved in crime, that we know of. But why are we asked to surrender or personal property like this? At what point does this invasion of privacy not okay? Dogs sniffing, X-raying, open bags, no shoes, where is the line? At what point is too much being asked for us to function comfortably as a society. I was a little weirded when they started check laptop for any substances on them. But I let it slide, as long as I can see the computer and know it is safe, like I do when I place my wallet and bag on the belt.

And now they want to just up and walk off with the laptop, if they feel the need. How long 'til someone takes advantage of this policy for a quick buck?

I am just wondering how this will work in court? If you take someones computer and happen to find something criminally related (fraud, child pornography, illegal downloads, etc.) can it be acted upon, how is it different that grabbing into a persons coat, or bag, and lucking into something illicit. That is supposed to be inadmissible. So how is this going to work.


I went back to the original story at the WP. This is an issue now as the Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the policy in April, so people are more aware of it now.

So, this is not new. But it is there to be used, widely. With the Drug War it has a use, with the War on Terror added uses. This ridiculous policy is just so wide open it is just a way to ignore the law on a whim...which defeats the point of drafting LAW! Ahem.

And while it is a not new policy it is getting used more and more. Again, a reason to not leave crap policy in the books to be abused.

Civil liberties and business travel groups have pressed the government to disclose its procedures as an increasing number of international travelers have reported that their laptops, cellphones and other digital devices had been taken -- for months, in at least one case -- and their contents examined.

So if a company is a threat to US business, grab one of their computers. If a political party or group is causing a given White House trouble, take their cellphones or blackberries and go through them. How are Republicans okay with this? Oh, right. They are in power. And civil liberties are not a big deal...yet.

And to close let us not forget how wide this policy is in materials that can be seized.

The policies cover "any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives, flash drives, cellphones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover "all papers and other written documentation," including books, pamphlets and "written materials commonly referred to as 'pocket trash' or 'pocket litter.' "

May I remind you the current government is spying on Quakers as a potential threat. How comfortable are you to go to an airport?

Trouble on the Net

I was worried yesterday when many of the sites I went to wouldn't work. Messed up my research. But the answer is out know to why.

PZ Myers:

I've been getting a volley of complaints that Pharyngula is crashing Internet Explorer. It turns out that this is a problem all over the web, and is Sitemeter's fault. I've changed the code in a way that I hope will fix it — let me know if it doesn't. (←cunning ploy there…if you're still crashing, you may not be able to read that!)

...

He also mentions you should use Firefox. But not everyone cares for Firefox, Safari, or Opera. So, nyah.

Nice to learn

One reason to get into podcasts is to hear about things you know and here the latest thinking, or other opinions. And there are many podcasts for that. But it is also nice to learn, or learn about learning resources.

I have to thank dl.tv for finally saying I don't have to be embarrassed about having Vista on my computer. Really, as I go through tech podcasts (yeah, I mean you CNET and the rest), the default line is Vista sucks, Vista is bad, you shouldn't use Vista. Vista is flawed. But so was the last OS, and the one before that. But the same troubles arise for the other OS series as well. And in the end, I don't have a choice, short of buying a system, and then buying a copy of XP. And their are plenty of businesses making sweet profit off people determined to do that. I can't stomach wasting money like that. Yeah, I have many games that I can never play again,but life goes on. So thanks dl.tv for reminding me that my Vista is running fine and getting the job done. Not to mention the rest of the show they do which is fun.

Also, WebbAlert sent me to CommonCraft to learn about some tech concepts which I sadly let slip by. In some of the cases I use sadly advisedly. For instance, for the story Morgan mentions how it is great to have an easy way to explain to grandma how great Twitter is. Now, I admit I have heard Twitter mentioned, but never in context (though the more tech podcast I listen to the more I am becoming aware of the uses). So she explains CommonCrafts demonstrations which lay it out for the layperson. And CommonCraft's craftings are good. I quickly came to appreciate what Twitter is. Good for them. And a good resource for you.

The trouble is, now that I know what Twitter is, I know find it amazingly STUPID. Yes. I said it. It is stupid...for me. Have a constantly running miniblog of what you are doing throughout the day. I find it hard to justify foisting myself on people like this. I am not so deluded to think my day to day life is that interesting, it kills me to live.

Now, their are caveats. If you are selling or promoting something, like yourself (i.e. a celebrity or media personality) then it makes sense. For Webb, or Leo Laporte, it is a cool use of tech and a way to give fans a peek in. Or as a TV/Movie star, a way for fans to connect. Or with a product, or candidacy for higher office, a way to sway votes, maybe. But otherwise, it is like...Facebook. Why? So people can send you images of martinis? Brian Cooley, on Buzz Report from CNET, The humiliation of Vista episode, wittily points to how stupid it is, particularly when a group of adults get going sending little pictures of unicorns and poo around. This is plain silly.

But the caveats. Yes, it can be a way to connect and draw in customers, or build interest or support for project one hopes to turn into a TV show, or to get people into your organization. But it is all still silly.

And if people want me to feel bad about running on Vista, all I have to say is,

"Uh hu. Are you on Facebook?"

Fricking Heck

Well, another computer has decided to go potty on me. Thankfully, unlike the standard operating procedure of leaving a completely fragged computer, this just has needed to be restored to the factory state. But it does mean all the documents, pictures, and videos I was keeping on it are kaput. So begins the process of re remembering passwords, and finding the software. Thankfully this is happening before I built up data and documents for my current class, so I can focus my ire and nerve on what is yet to come in those classes.


But one bigger annoyance is the loss of all the podcasts I have saved and have been going through the last few weeks. As usual, I grabbed up more than I can handle (they keep mounting up). So I am trying to remember those, that aren't on the iPod at present. But while it seems to take ages to re download them all, they are offering interesting bits, which I will want to comment on. I have been grabbing a mix, some science, some tech, some gaming fun, history, and a bit of woo. You have to take some time for some silly woo, just to see how off kilter they are, and listening to them on podcast really gets you that view.